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please guys, let's keep this on topic! this is only for coming up with a voting system! any other ideas such as wiping our current staff clean should go in a different post. this wasn't made to create drama, just to spur ideas
I am on the same page as those about keeping our current staff. I don’t roleplay with all of them but they are all kind, friendly, and care a lot about classic from what I can tell. I think they should stay (if that’s what THEY want, of course). Down the road when we’re settled is another story if we have to come back to this but I don’t see the point in uprooting them too. They’ve worked really hard. (Sorry I was writing this before the post right before but I feel I need to leave it).
I’m in favor of the previous suggestion of keeping current staff through the reboot and six months after, having re-elections for the same / new staff. I agree it would be a little too chaotic to try to switch out the Admins and the clans all at once.
"No matter what other people may say, we are the protagonists of the world." - Keji Akaashi
365 posts
Post by rika on Aug 21, 2019 21:04:16 GMT -5
I'm honestly on the same boat as Sun. I think it would benefit to keep the current staff but also hold a re-voting session. Plus, down the line, it would definitely help everyone to calm down a bit after the chaos and see where we stand again, etc.
the only other thing that I wanted to bring up is how the new administrators would be trained. The current way of picking a successor is so that you can begin training your successor. Being an admin is a big responsibility, and being thrown into the role cold turkey would be difficult. I agree admins should be elected, but this is one problem I’m not sure how to solve.
i apologized to bolt in a private message about having to redirect back to something not exactly on task, and i'll apologize again. however, even if it takes it off topic, i can't let this one go
Edit: If you read all of this and just became very offended maybe look inside yourself and ask why. Where you one of those bad admins? Did you encourage some of those bad ideals? Where you apart of a negative event that shouldn't have happened? If you were a good admin then this isn't about your possible toxic actions or behaviors. When you bring up a repeating pattern of toxic behavior people get insulted
like cleaver, i have a lot of thoughts on this that i'm not going to go too far in depth with. i don't think replacing the entire staff is going to do anything. this is for two reasons. one, demoting the whole staff and starting over is not going to change the fact that like we don't have an unlimited number of users, we can't just call this one a bad batch, etc. two, demoting everyone, even those who haven't done anything[/b] wrong (if other structural changes aren't made) is going to make people leave. it will make people who legitimately deserved their position leave. we can't do that. i also don't like term limits or setting terms simply because of the fact that like we don't have unlimited members. our retention rate is already not great. we also have a sort of voting system for helper mods, and that proves chronically ineffective too, and i don't think voting is all its cracked up to be. i agree with faith, too, that it could create a system where people do things to get a vote, even if they don't think it's the best for the site
but none of that actually matters, i'm not here for that honestly.
i'm here to say how absolutely unacceptable this edit was. cleaver had every right to question what was said, because it was abrasive. it made some pretty stunning accusations. the user who posted it was admin years ago. were things a problem back then? were the admins sketchy and nepotist back then? absolutely! but to make a post that suggests that the mistakes of that adminstration are the mistakes of every administration is offensive, and rightfully so. although it is suggested later by the user who posted this that cleaver had misinterpreted their post, the post came off as a direct attack on every admin everywhere at any time because of the mistakes that a former administrator witnessed years ago. cleaver was not alone in how she interepreted it. i absolutely fumed at it. the user suggests that "if you were a good admin" then it wasn't about you, but the implication of the post is there : all admins are bad. they all get corrupted. the admin teams make decisions to harm the users.
wouldn't you be upset if you were told that ?
it was accusatory. it was infuriating.
and before a misread is accused again, like it calls for direct revolution towards the end of the post. if the admins as a whole weren't being frankly crapped on and flamed, why would the users need to take manners into their own hand?
when cleaver brought up a "please provide proof or like maybe don't" this lovely response, noted above, was added to the original. this was a pretty direct attack. the user who psoted it did not say "hey cleaver you were a crap admin and that's why you're upset," but cleaver was the only former administrator who posted thus far.
i cannot fathom why that was okay. instead of vaguely attacking the admins, the user edited their post to say that, which was a direct response to a user who challenged the original reply. i hope i'm not the only one who can see why this is a problem? we cannot keep attacking each other like this. everyone who is currently calling for change, calling for revolution, says that part of the problem is the toxicity of the site. yet, in the same breath, things like this are added to posts that are actively adding fuel to the borderline flame war. it's frustrating. you can't say that the site is hateful, that the admins are bad guys, and then immediately attack people yourself. it isn't going to get us anywhere. the concerns are that users are leaving, but we need to stop for a second and consider that things like that actively hurt the site just as much as the problems at hand.
this is unacceptable. behavior like this, pushing each other to the edge of an explosion, is doing more harm to this site in this moment than any of the steps that brought us here.
I agree with Cleaver and Ian. I'm only a moderator and I'm fuming at this. It was completely uncalled for and Cleaver had every right to "misinterpret" it. That was an attack on all admins and I happen to enjoy the admins that are in position right now. Many have done so much for this site and to accuse them of such cruelty was unfair to them. First you say all of them and then after someone said something, you changed your story. So were they really all corrupted or were you just jumping on to stir up trouble? Maybe you had a bad experience with one years ago but this does not apply to them now. They are busting their butts trying to keep this site from falling apart. But a few of you are so caught up in wanting to be right, you can't see the hard work they are putting into this site and to keep everyone from leaving. They have come up with so many different ideas to try to satisfy as many of you as they can and all you are is cutting them down and keeping your minds closed. That is down right cruel. As a matter of fact, I have high respect for these admins. They are busting their tails for y'all and all you wanna do is tear them down. Shame on you.
Hey just a friendly reminder that it wasn’t all of us who spoke out against current administrators. We simply read Vulpixkit’s post a little differently, but most of us still appreciate the current Admins.
Maybe don’t say stuff like “you all have your heads so far up your butts”. It comes off as a little rude and like you’re generalizing the other side as ungrateful and ignorant when we agree with you, and Ian, on a lot of points. Most of us are NOT tearing the administrators down.
I agree with Ian and cleaver on this one... the current staff have spent all day discussing, reading your inputs, and trying to offer potential solutions. We all want the same thing in the end. A better site and environment to rp in. Thank you sunlight. I agree with you as well. This is a two way street and we should treat everyone with respect.
Deleted
POSTEDAug 21, 2019 23:09:26 GMT -5 TO Ideas & Suggestions
Lee I apologize for continuing to keep the thread off topic but since things have apparently calmed down enough for me to type this, I'm gonna add my two cents in.
First off guys, we need to stop going after the admins, You don't like that you feel as if you don't have a voice on classic I get it but, this is kind of a prime reason why they feel like they can't approach us about anything. I'm all for clan deletion and staff elections etc. but, this Us vs Them mentality needs to stop and it does go both ways. You can't call out the admins for being toxic while also attacking them, or insulting their character and not expect them to get offended like normal human beings. Instead or just trying to kick the staff out, maybe try talking to the staff and trying to come to a solution, the fact that they are monitoring these threads means they do care about what we're saying. They're just afraid to speak out for the same reason you all were before this whole mess, they don't want to be attack or have their feelings hurt.
I left because staff were driving members off the site for the same thing some users are doing to them. I'm not trying to call anyone or or start anything, as I stated before I don't have issues with anyone and If i some how offended someone I'm sorry but, things are on fire and won't get better until we can have a discussion that isn't just pointing out everything that has ever been done wrong. These threads are supposed to be about finding a solution to a problem, not a means to an all out war between staff and RUs and the longer this goes on the more casualties it'll cause. A lot of people have left just because of the fighting and chaos already and i think, things are just getting out of hand.
I was hoping many of you would read over my post and actually READ it and reflect on it but you haven’t so I guess I’ll spoon feed it to you.
No where in my post does is say “All admins” no where in my post does it say “current admins” no where in my post does it call a specific admin team or person out. My post even carefully uses “admins can” instead of “admins will”. My post was as vague as possible, why? Because I didn’t blame one admin or even a set of admins.
My post was about about toxic admin ideals that can be passed down and continued for the wrong reasons. My post was about how these admins with the wrong ideals will continue to stay and teach others even if they mean well by them. My post was about how long term adminship can cause burn out which can contribute to these bad events and ideals My post was about how bad all of this can be if not kept in check. My post used a specific example with no names or date to pinpoint about a team that is long gone. Then at the end my post stated that this site as a group needs to work together and stop expecting the admins to fix everything because this site is a team effort. My post called MYSELF out more than any other person.
Then I edit it to include a saying made by two other previous posts not to BLAME but to help reflect, it was not put to point fingers, it is literally something one tells another person to force them to reflect.
Yet instead of reflecting, some of you covered your ears, pointed at me, and made a very heated and hateful post. I am very disappointed and saddened. To be honest some of you sound like those who would scream “Not all cops” at people of color who routinely suffer from cop violence and want a change.
You’re right, “not all admins”. But there’s obviously enough of a problem that this site had already started revolting even before my post graced this page.
So let me ask again. Why are you offended? Are you apart of the problem? Can you as a person, member, and friend better yourself in any aspect that could be toxic?
Can you dial it back a bit with the tone? I know you’re upset that we don’t understand your post, but the rudeness feels unnecessary and isn’t helpful. It doesn’t make it easier for me to understand where you’re coming from or make the post easier to read how you intended it.
Here’s the thing — that’s exactly the problem I was worried about. You didn’t single out specific admins but you’re claiming that we are passing toxic ideals through the staff, which implies you believe users are acting on those ideals. If you don’t think our admins are acting in bad faith then I don’t see how your post is relevant, so for the purpose of this response I’m going to assume you believe that. (If you don’t then my apologies and we’ll get that cleared up). I understand your point about burnout and how that could lead people to make those decisions, but still, I don’t like the implication that our staff is and has been corrupt and I still think it’s disrespect to suggest that without proof. Do you get where I’m coming from with this? How it feels like a slanderous accusation?
And while your edit may be intended to be reflective, it wasn’t. The idea that anyone who is offended by your insults is corrupt is ridiculous and hurtful. You don’t have to have done anything wrong to be offended when you’re accused of doing just that (again, because that is how your post was read, that you were saying we continue to teach our admins bad lessons). I don’t think that’s fair and I don’t think this is a good way to help people. Being angry that people’s feelings are hurt and blaming them for their own hurt feelings is not the way to handle any situation.
Also that analogy felt completely out of line, tbh. You cannot make that serious of an accusation or try to draw a parallel between someone who was offended by your statement and a very sensitive and unrelated offsite issue. It comes across as belittling and extremely disrespectful to everyone that you would male that comparison to discredit us. Please do not try to use that again, it’s extremely offensive and not at all related. (It also isn’t relevant to drag opinions on police relations into this mess, but by bringing that up it feels like you’re trying to make us double back and try to clarify how we feel about that political situation. Again, perhaps not your intention, but how it’s coming across).
Do you understand our concern with your posts and how they can be seen as offensive? How even though you claim it’s not all admins your post sure feels that way?
(Also apologies for any and all typos here, on mobile.)
Hey guys I just wanna pop in and say I think we all need to take a step back and take a breather. Things have gotten a bit out of hand and I feel like lots of hurtful things are definitely being flung at one another. This thread wasn't made for the intent of calling others out and creating mayhem & hurt feelings, it was supposed to be a civil discussion and spiraled out of control. Please remember that there are actual people behind these screens and words can really hurt. ❤️
I think that’s a good idea so I’ll step out again, but real quickly -
Vulpix if you’re done discussing this then alright, but if after you sleep on it you want to continue, we can take it elsewhere. I’m not trying to make you angry, I just want to be on the same page about your intentions and ow they were interpreted. But if you’ve got the idea and you’re done feel free to ignore me c:
I don’t 100% agree with terms or even voting for who should take over admin roles. As a former admin myself, I was chosen by someone who I don’t think I ever role played with - perhaps once or twice. When I stepped down, I chose my successor based on someone who I thought was a great member of Classic, was active, and would do a great job, even though I only roleplayed with her once in a while. My point being is that people don’t always choose their friends. A lot of times (and especially with the admins we have now) I believe that they would choose users that are best for the role, not just people they are friends with.
I believe it is important to happen this way because it makes our transitions smoother. The new admins are trained (what if, for example, the admin leaves sort of abruptly and then we are left without an admin for who knows how long?). If we really want to be democratic, perhaps we should let the admin choose a couple of successors, see if they would even LIKE the position, and then we vote from people that they know they would work well with and they believe would do well in their position?
Here’s my main idea, though. I’m pretty sure there is some kind of procedure for this for staff (it’s been a while, guys, my apologies for not remember totally) but rather than thinking of HOW we get our admins — though important — I think we should look at what we would do for a BAD admin.
Now, I’m not saying we call out admins for some tiny mistake — we ALL make mistakes, we are ALL human —but if there is an admin that a majority of users believe does not have the best interest for Classic in mind, all users should get a say in whether they should stay in their position. Sort of like a trial (which is only held after a majority agrees with said decision).
You might be thinking — that’s kind of cruel. Put someone in the spotlight for their actions. But I’m talking about, if we REALLY have someone who only has cruel intentions, someone who hurts others, etc, then I can hardly feel bad for them seeing that people don’t want them as an admin. I’m also not saying calling them out for all of their actions in a thread. I’m talking about they’ve had a certain amount of incidences, and everyone takes a vote. If they are as bad as they’re acting, it’s kind of past the point that they need everyone’s respect. In this case, a vote for a successor would probably be a good idea. This keeps everyone having a say in how they are being treated so in the instance that all of the admins are friends, they can’t keep the bad admin on just because they want to.
I don’t know. I’m just throwing out an idea that was in my mind. And I am NOT directing this at any of the admins, of course. I love you guys. I’m talking about if there happens to be someone like this in the future.
Also, with terms, a year goes really quickly, guys. That’s barely enough time to get your feet wet in an admin position. Trust me, I know. If we have someone who is doing an amazing job, is fair, and does everything they can for classic, why uproot them? Get rid of a good thing with the chance that the next person that goes in just screws it up or decides they hate it and we’re in constant chaos?
Done. Just had to get all that out lol. I have absolutely nothing against anyone. I just wanted to give my two cents.
