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Post by simplylight on Aug 8, 2019 10:14:37 GMT -5
Okay, so I am in multiple clans with multiple different training systems and I can say this for certain, they don't work. It's not because the staff of the clans haven't been trying because I know 3 or 4 recently that have had group discussions about it. I think people simply don't like to roleplay in training threads. First of all, to most, I think they can be boring. We aren't bad rpers, but there is no plot with this new cat that you are training and your character. Second, it is a requirement. I think that as soon as something is required many people just don't find it as interesting. Training threads are great for getting your clan conts, but 9x out of 10 they are one-liners and have no life to them. There is always that rare, fun training thread that gives you hope for all the others, but I don't feel like it is enough to keep the threads active. Most of the training sessions I've joined in recently have had 5 responses then everyone ghosts it. The problem with that is that most clans/groups require 10-15 responses... oop. I think half the site is made up of my full-grown, almost elder-aged apprentices because the threads keep dying out c'x (and some of them are my fault, sorry spot).
OKAY, so we need a solution.
What are some ideas to solve this training issue so that we don't have apprentices the age of senior warriors in every group? Is there a way to make them more exciting without overbearing the rpers?
pls respond with some ideas because I am blank and a bit stressed from the amount of training threads lol
Clan leaders (As in the user, not the character) could allow the option for apprentices to be trained by an outsider or a cat in the clan. In rp it would be inferred that the apprentice has an actual mentor in the clan training them, but the idea of the outsider cat mentoring an apprentice is that the apprentice sneaks out to be trained.
Pros
- People not in the clan can help them out with mentoring
- Creates an interesting spin on apprenticeship training
- Would be a volunteer system
- Would increase character development and plotting
- Could lead to a big plot where clans are realizing their apprentices are sneaking off and trying to prevent it from happening
Cons (I'll list the cons as they come up in discussion!)
I don't know that I have a solution, per se, but while mentoring outside of clans might be a good idea for some clans, for others who are more traditional, strict, or untrusting of outsiders it just doesn't make any sense. It might be fun in an open clan like Dayclan, but I will say that in a clan such as Brookclan it definitely would not work.
Possibly making the training threads not required but optional, or maybe having alternatives such as a single roleplay or proving that you rped your apprentice in any capacity. I've been thinking about just doing one on one assessments or giving individual training threads actual goals, which can be seen a lot in books where the leader or deputy will instruct mentors with what they should do with apprentices that day. Maybe more guidance and more flexibility with what is considered acceptable for promotion would help.
I think you're misunderstanding. Clans wouldn't willingly allow outsiders to mentor their apprentices. It would just happen, just like how in the series Dark Forest cats mentored apprentices unbeknownst to clan cats. YOU as in you the person, not your character, could choose to allow that as an option on an AC
Keep: Breezefall Delete: Promote: Meadowpaw Outsider or Clan Cat Mentor?: Outsider List cats you'd like to mentor: Foxtail (FallClan), Magicmelody (FallClan), Chris (Primal Instinct)
Then if you chose Outsider the leader would hook you up with an outsider volunteer or if there aren't enough volunteers they would get a clan mentor by default. It could just happen outside of your leader characters control/ knowledge.
I'm not super hype about switching up training for 'an outsider training someone' I feel like the issue then is it becomes extremely confusing then. Because then leaders have to deal with outsiders and in clan volunteers. Plus when you start listing cats you'd like to mentor, what happens when you have too little? While it's optional for people to say 'I'd rather no mentor with so and so' it's a whole lot harder for as leader if you make the pool even smaller.
I know training isn't something everyone's hype about but it's also kind of a nice simple concept. I have had good training threads and i've had ho hum training threads, but it's kind of nice to always have that as a starting point.
I could certainly agree with tossing out the actual need for a required amount of replies in the training threads, and instead include maybe submissions of a number of posts with that apprentice? Like 'overall we want to see this apprentice receive at least 20 replies during their time as an apprentice, this can be in a training thread, or other thread.'
But I'm really not down for the outsider training thing because it's too complicated in my opinion. It's too complicated to keep running for a long time, and I fear there just not being a big enough pool of cats for everyone that does want an outsider to train their apprentice. It's certainly something we could start doing, but I don't think it should become the norm and usurp the old way of doing training.
Plus for a clan like NightClan, the way we see training is to try and have two apprentices bond with each other while learning under one cat. It's super important that the lessons be taught in clan for my clan. Introducing an outsider training program would be nice on the side, but never to completely replace what I want for my training which is, for it to be about the apprentices forging tighter bonds between ach other and their mentor (in theory).
TLDR: I'd be open for the outsider training thing to become something on the side, but I don't want it to become the new norm for training, it's too complicated and it goes against certain groups. And yes Faith I'm aware that it is not something 'sanctioned' but in that case will rpers know that? I've written NightClan is nocturnal as much as I can and people still rp like cats being out at dawn is totes normal for NightClan. So I feel like people wouldn't realize the meta is it's 'training' but in universe it's supposed to be of the vein of 'DF training'. They'd just think it's training.
Thanks for making this Simp because I completely agree cx
I like the outsider idea, but I'm not sure how it solves the problem? I might just be misunderstanding it, but wouldn't it end up very similar? The cat would still have a training thread with their outsider mentor (or maybe two since they had an in-clan mentor?) and after doing that once or twice it would probably get old again and we'd have the same issue with inactive training threads. Even if the mentors are voluntary, a lot of them are currently too, and right now they're still dropping the threads. (Also, how does the apprentice find an outsider mentor if it's all secret? Do they just happen to run into a random cat that agrees to train them?) So it could be a fun plot but I don't see it being a long-term fix.
I'm not big on training thread requirements for promoting apprentices because you do run into the elderly-apprentice problem where their mentor just won't respond to threads (or the app-rper won't, share the blame) so they go through 3 mentors and 15 moons before they finally get promoted, and then their siblings have been warriors for half a year already and the timeline gets strange. Group training threads were a fun idea but run into the patrol problem. Throwing them out entirely and just asking the apprentice to be roleplayed could work though then you still have to track down specific threads for the AC rip.
I like optional the training threads idea? They might still never get made or roleplayed on, but then it's there if the user wants it, and if they don't, no biggie. You could also just make it an option for the apprentice to choose if they want a training thread or not, and if they don't want to roleplay training then tell their mentor not to bother making it. In theory then only the apprentices that want to train would get a thread, so those would be active threads it probably wouldn't work anyway but hey.
Ultimately all of this is up to leaders to decide, I'm just putting ideas out there for people to make the choice themselves.
Personally I don't see why apprentices are the only position out there where you need to earn replies to be promoted. Naturally you might think that if someone has an apprentice they need to in someway earn it, but that feeling of being an elite warrior is stripped away when someone can easily join the clan as a warrior with no work needed as if that warrior was born and grew up there the whole time. Truthfully if someone doesn't want to go through training I do believe they should have the option to opt out. When you've put in time and effort into a training thread and someone else can easily bypass it by adding their cat as a warrior from the get-go it makes training threads like these feel like a needless busy chores. Apprentice training can still be offered for character development, but the idea of it being mandatory because of some strange illusion that it must be earned is a bit hypocritical when you can simply join as a warrior with no effort. This isn't to bash on people joining as warriors, it's necessary (I mean imagine joining this site and being forced to rp kits until the next AC that would suck, I don't even know how to rp a kit), but I do think it takes away the glory of training threads.
winterclan's leader and mistakenly caught floaty thing
2,485 posts
Post by simplylight on Aug 9, 2019 12:47:25 GMT -5
Thank you faith and everyone for sharing ideas <3 I'm glad I'm not the only one that has been struggling with the training issue. I love the idea of it working out, but I have to agree with several of you and say that I don't think training threads should be required. However, I do also like the idea of maybe requiring a certain amount of posts with your lil apprentice babe? I also agree with cleaver and think it's fine to keep assigning mentors but leave it optional to make a thread with them. Does that make sense? Or we can ask in the ACs and such if that person wants a mentor? Obviously for clan lore reasons they would still have a 'mentor' but a training thread won't be required. We can just say 'oh appleblossom mentored tinypaw' and be good with it oops? c'x
Honestly, I get super bored with training threads. I always try to come up with something to make it interesting but its easier said than done. Ive had a couple good training threads but they often die out and its really hard to keep it up when the others dont reply or if it is simply boring. Even being the mentor. Its literally the same training in each thread. Starting out with patroling the borders, learning to hunt, learning battle techniques. Its the same thing, different thread. And, Ive had apprentices I couldn't promote because I couldnt get the mentor to reply enough without spamming them and Ive had to ask the leader to reassign me mentors for those apprentices which is more work on the leader. And its been hectic with all the group training threads because of the lack of mentors and the mass amount of apprentices being made and needing mentors. Weve had to do mass training threads and not everyone replied and it got kind of messy with those.
Even though Faith has a good point, it will still be chaos trying to include outsiders especially with a clan that doesnt accept them so easily. But I do like what Faith did in Dayclan with having Starclan help with the training using Spirit Guides. But even then, we still run into the same problems with them being boring or others not replying.
I think maybe it should be an optional thing. Maybe assign mentors and if they want to go through with the threads, they can. If they can't or fail to, I dont think it should be counted against them in order to promote them. This problem has been irritating me for a while and Im so glad Simply brought this up. I really hope we can get this sorted out!
i completely agree with what cleaver and everyone else is saying — to me, personally, i think it’s a really good idea to make training threads an optional thing that the apprentice(s) and mentor(s) can choose to do or not.
i also completely understand why group training is necessary, so users don’t get overwhelmed by having too many of their cats being mentors at the same time, but i honestly feel like it takes what little magic there is of a one-on-one relationship out of it, and if training threads were made optional, that could potentially eliminate the need for groups because there would naturally be fewer apprentices in need of training. so that’s another incentive for me.
tl;dr i agree that they should be made optional ♥️ (and thank u simply for bringing this discussion into the open!! ur a champ)
This could potentially become a sitewide plot. The outside trainers could be trying to rise up and turn the cats against one another. To plan to take the clans down or whatever. Say these cats search out young cats and convince them they’ll teach them amazing things etc. gains their trust, turns a few against their clan.
Kinda like the DF thing, except these are living breathing cats.
gonna be honest here and admit that i only skimmed most of the above, but i think if we make training more of like a mini plot than just
"hey littlepaw time to wake up for training" "oh boy what are we doing today?" "hunting, of course"
like, add a mission to it. after all, learning is best through experience, right? we've done the same thing for patrols, so why not training threads? like, the leader could make a section of things that need done around the clan, just small problems that a warrior and their apprentice could easily deal with. a help board, like in rpgs, you know? it'll keep the thread fun and interesting, but most of all different.
